There's this thread on the Anarchism tribe that started as a cross-post from the Gender Reconciliation tribe. I was frustrated to see what I thought were radical, thinking males discuss issues that effect women with such venom. Is this how guys talk behind other gendered backs? Or is this an isolated event?
I was curious this tribe's perspective. :)
sanfrancisco.tribe.net/thread...ef04a67
I was curious this tribe's perspective. :)
sanfrancisco.tribe.net/thread...ef04a67
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Re: Radical men and their thoughts on women
Sat, May 21, 2005 - 3:18 PMI never got passed the questionaire.. I found it incredibly insulting, and baiting.. It was not written to give anyone a chance to answer properly. When you ask questions in such a way that you bait people, don't be surprised when you get what you asked for.
Does Sexism exsist? Yes.. Do I address it in myself and my surroundings when I notice it or it is pointed out? Yes Do I believe there are other men out there that do as well? Yes..
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Re: Radical men and their thoughts on women
Sat, May 21, 2005 - 3:30 PMHere's just a sampling of the questions. I don't find them baiting, but maybe that's because I know what it's like
44. How many of the following activities do you contribute to in your home (this is a partal list of what it takes to run a household): A: Sweep and mop floors and clean carpets B: Wash and put away dishes C: Clean stove, countertops, sinks and appliances if they are messy and each time after you have prepared food D: Collect money, do food shopping, put away food and make meals for people you live with E: Do house laundry (kitchen towels, bathroom hand towels, washable rugs, etc.) F: Clean up common room spaces, even if it’s not your chore G: Pick up other’s slack H: Deal with garbage, recycling, and compost I: Take care of bills, rent, utilities J: Deal with the landscaping and gardening K: Clean bathrooms and make sure bathroom is clean after you use it L: Feed, clean up after, and take care of housepets
50. When was the last time you showed a woman how to do a task rather than doing it for her and assuming she couldn’t do it?
51. When was the last time you asked a woman to show you how to do a task?
59. Do you talk to other men about patriarchy and your part in it? -
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Re: Radical men and their thoughts on women
Sat, May 21, 2005 - 3:56 PMI will give you the benefit of the doubt and not assume that you were somehow implying that my problem with the way the questions were asked being equal to my being a sexist jerk.
I found it baiting, as a man, the tone of the questions are implying that I automatically am incongruant with being a femenist or being able to learn about and overcome my own sexist programming. Which is baiting, and oppresive in and of itself.
Taking a few of the less baiting questions out of context doesn't make the document as a whole less baiting. Just like taking a few non sexist men from the entire gender doesn't mean sexism doesn't exsist.
Yes, there is privelge, and a miriad of other "isms" but this questionaire is inherently sexist against men.. and sexism is unacceptable no matter who is spewing it. -
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Re: Radical men and their thoughts on women
Sat, May 21, 2005 - 3:58 PMOne more point.. If you want to ask me those questions in a non sexist way, I would be happy to answer them.... But I chose not to participate in things that are automatically inclined to set me up -
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sexism against men
Sat, May 21, 2005 - 4:34 PMi am a firm believer that there is no such thing. it is like reverse racism. it simply can not exist given the current power dynamic. to liberally borrow from someone on live journal :
in our society, there is not racism against whites, there is not sexism against men, there is not classism against the rich. if people in a marginalized group treat people belonging to these privileged groups badly or make generalizations against people in the privileged group or try to set up their own space that excludes the privileged group or makes members of the privileged group play by their rules, it is not an "ism." the privileged group still has all the power, and the opinions of the marginalized group are not creating an institutionalized framework to oppress the privileged group. there is a big difference.
this may seem like a semantic quibble, but that's what me & other people mean when they say reverse "isms" don't exist.
ism = institutionalized oppression.
prejudices/stereotyping deals more with individual behavior.
so when you feel that you are being dealt with stereotypically, perhaps thinking about the language you use to say that is important.
i took a look at that thread and was/am appalled. i would be happy to answer that questionaire, kight, if you wanted to repost it over here, and if you see it as helpful/insightful. i think, however, you are getting a whole hell of a lot on insight over there, sadly. -
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Re: sexism against men
Sat, May 21, 2005 - 6:36 PMAngel,
The problem with your view is that then we must quantify suffering and oppression. Yours is more than mine, or mine is more than yours.. or theirs is more than someone elses.
I think suffering and oppression are wrong period, and one suffering is no more or no less than someone else's suffering.
Saying that woman can't have sexism against men implies they have no power.. I disagree.. I know lots of women with lots of power...I don't believe for a moment that women are defenseless nor do I believe for a moment that woman can't utilize all kinds of sources of power..
I heard a story from a friend who was talking about a book she had read, and in it the white guy was explaining why he felt it neccessary to address racism and oppression against people of color. He said it would be simply a continuation of the oppression to believe he was doing this to help people of color. He felt he was doing it to benefit the white folks, because of all they lose by continuing to act from bigotry.
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Re: sexism against men
Sat, May 21, 2005 - 10:13 PMactually saying that women cant have sexism against men is saying that they do not hold the majority of power in the current structure, not that they have NO power. women have much power, i would never argue to the contrary. however, the power that is used to bludgeon and oppress in our current structure is held primarily by men. would you not agree?
i don't understand how your analogy in your fourth paragraph comes to bear at all on this situation and i read it several times. can you clarify? -
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Re: sexism against men
Sat, May 21, 2005 - 11:07 PMI do agree that rich white men hold the majority of power.. that will probably never change.. for us (those fighting against all forms of opression and "isms") to excuse one group from oppressing another because they aren't the majority power holders is ridiculous, and the same sort of logic those with privelege often use to excuse their actions.
The fourth paragraph has to do with this.. I don't believe people of color (or any other oppressed group) Needs me to come in and rescue them or help them or do anything that they haven't asked me to do.. I fight oppression not because it's helpful to those who are oppressed, but because those doing the oppressing are suffering from their own actions by cutting themselves off.
I do want to point out that although I am a white male, I am a gay white male living with AIDS, and disabled. I am below poor as well. To say that somehow the oppression that I face is somehow less that that of another group is not only unfair, but it only serves to further divide us from each other, when we need more than ever to come together. -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
privilege vs. oppression
Sun, May 22, 2005 - 12:48 AMowning my privilege doesn't mean canceling out my oppression. i am also a poor person. also a person who is disabled. i am also queer and transgendered. HOWEVER those oppressions do not cancel out the privileges i recieve such as being median aged (31), often receiving white skin privilege (though i am mixed race), getting male privilege and many more.
just because i am not ALL of the MOST privileged class, ie; rich, white, assigned male, christian, etc. does not mean i do not qualify as having privilege.
looking at my privileges and owning them doesn't take away from my ability to fight oppression. it adds to my ability to more honestly fight oppression of all sorts. that is not about classifiying oppressions as less than or more than, but rather about seeing where everyone holds privilege in this society and when i can learn from that.
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Re: sexism against men
Sun, May 22, 2005 - 4:14 AMI have to reply to your last post up here because we had reached the max after your last one.
By your own admission/idea then, you can not ever be oppressed. Coming from privelege makes you impervise to oppression, is how I understand your arguement. and I don't buy it.
I lived in Portland for a bit, and had the opportunity to be denied housing by one lesbian seperatist, and denied the opportunity for employment from another. I chose to not fight for my rights in those matters when I decided that in the end it wouldn't solve anything. But there is no escaping that woman had oppressed me as a man for being a man.
I also want to say that I recognize my percieved privelege everyday.. I wouldn't do what I do in my life if that weren't true. But percieved privelege is not privelege. Don't assume because I am white and male that I am magically granted entrance into the powerful, or to access to said privelege. -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
never oppressed?
Sun, May 22, 2005 - 10:20 AMthat's not what i said at all and i am not sure how you are getting that from what i am writing. i do believe that not getting certain things or access does not qualify as oppression. i think someone can be an asshole to you and not be oppressing you. also for one thing i believe in women's only space, and denying men access is not oppression. assumed privilege is not ALWAYS privilege, but it is more often then the reverse is. for instance, i will more often be spoken to first before my female friends in a restaurant, i will be pulled over less than my darker skinned relatives, etc.
it seems like you want me to 'break out' my oppressions, so, ok. i will more often be denied housing or jobs for being visibly queer and not gender normative, rarely will a space or group fit my physical needs due to my disability and most discussions tend to make me feel 'othered' because i am mixed race and of indigenous descent. so, obviously, i can be deeply oppressed, in these and other ways. but can i be oppressed as a male? no. just no.
to return to the topic of the thread, as someone who was socialized female, i have a pretty good handle on the insidious and far reaching effects of sexism. now that the shoe is on the other foot, so to speak, i would never claim reverse sexism because i know it just doesn't exist.
ps. there ARE a slew of privileges that you 'magically' gain just by being white (and male). this essay tinyurl.com/58jmp really helps outline a lot of them. it made me think differently about white skin/light skin privilege, and i think everyone should read it. (she talks a bit about male privilege too since she was a women's studies prof) -
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Re: never oppressed?
Sun, May 22, 2005 - 6:46 PMGo Angel...agree with you 500%. Especially quoting the MacIntosh article. That one rocks my world every time I read it.
And Nun, I agree with you too... "I fight oppression...because those doing the oppressing are suffering from their own actions by cutting themselves off." Though I also do it with the hope that it helps others.
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Re: sexism against men
Mon, May 23, 2005 - 3:09 PMhey angel, the post was removed from the anarchism tribe, and i'm not sure what benefit it would do here to post the original questionarre. i was mostly interested in discussing the responses radical genetic men have towards discussion around sexism. it's interesting to me that the post was removed only after a non-genetic-male stepped in to voice an alternative opinion, but maybe something else was posted that i hadn't read.
i value your posts, as usual
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Re: sexism against men
Wed, May 25, 2005 - 7:20 PMwoot! yeah!!! thank you for posting this!!
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Re: Radical men and their thoughts on women
Mon, May 23, 2005 - 3:12 PMbecause the questionarre was long, i randomly snipped bits of it. i don't know if i would have worded a questionarre the same way as the author of that one, but i think you dismissing the discussion as "baiting" was off-mark and circumventious.
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